# NTSB DFW08LA144: Stinson 108-3, N6805M, Roanoke, TX, May 15, 2008 - Type: NTSB accident investigation - Classification: Accident · No injuries · Limited investigation · Final report - Date: May 15, 2008, 14:15 local (19:15 UTC) - Place: Roanoke, TX - Coordinates: 33.04972, -97.232223 (estimated) - Nearby events: https://openairdocs.org/map.md?lat=33.0497&lon=-97.2322&mi=10 - Phase of flight: [Takeoff](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-phases/300) (OpenAirDocs' grouping) - Defining events: [Takeoff: Runway incursion veh/AC/person](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320); [Landing-flare/touchdown: Runway incursion veh/AC/person](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320) - Highest injury: No injuries - Injuries: 3 uninjured - Status: Completed, report January 29, 2009 - Report: Approved by Office Director - Parties: Federal Aviation Administration - NTSB case key (mKey): 68034 - NTSB case page: https://web.ntsb.gov/investigations/?ntsbnumber=DFW08LA144 - NTSB report (PDF, downloads): https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/68034/pdf - NTSB docket: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=68034 - Page: https://openairdocs.org/ntsb/DFW08LA144 ## Probable cause (aircraft 1) The departing pilot's inadequate visual lookout resulting in his airplane colliding with the landing airplane. Contributing to the accident was the trees/visual obstructions along the runway's approach path. ## Probable cause (aircraft 2) The departing pilot's inadequate visual lookout. Contributing to the accident was the trees/visual obstructions along the runway’s approach path. ## Findings NTSB's coded findings; those marked are part of the probable cause. - [Attention/monitoring: monitoring other aircraft](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540): Personnel issues › Psychological · Pilot (probable cause), aircraft 1; cases with it: [Stinson 108-3, 1 case](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540/cases.md?model=9230408), [All aircraft, 231 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540/cases.md) - [Object/animal/substance: tree(s)](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020): Environmental issues › Physical environment · Effect on operation (probable cause), aircraft 1; cases with it: [Stinson 108-3, 3 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020/cases.md?model=9230408), [All aircraft, 933 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020/cases.md) - [Attention/monitoring: monitoring other aircraft](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540): Personnel issues › Psychological · Pilot of other aircraft (probable cause), aircraft 2; cases with it: [Piper PA-28-161, 8 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540/cases.md?model=7102803), [All aircraft, 231 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/02021540/cases.md) - [Object/animal/substance: tree(s)](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020): Environmental issues › Physical environment · Effect on operation (probable cause), aircraft 2; cases with it: [Piper PA-28-161, 9 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020/cases.md?model=7102803), [All aircraft, 933 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-findings/03022020/cases.md) ## Sequence of events The events NTSB coded, in order, by phase of flight. The defining event best describes what happened. - [Takeoff: Runway incursion veh/AC/person](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320) (defining event), aircraft 1; cases with it: [Stinson 108-3, 2 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320/sequence.md?model=9230408), [All aircraft, 104 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320/sequence.md) - [Takeoff: Ground collision](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200), aircraft 1; cases with it: [Stinson 108-3, 1 case](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200/sequence.md?model=9230408), [All aircraft, 618 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200/sequence.md) - [Landing-flare/touchdown: Runway incursion veh/AC/person](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320) (defining event), aircraft 2; cases with it: [Piper PA-28-161, 1 case](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320/sequence.md?model=7102803), [All aircraft, 104 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/320/sequence.md) - [Landing-flare/touchdown: Ground collision](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200), aircraft 2; cases with it: [Piper PA-28-161, 13 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200/sequence.md?model=7102803), [All aircraft, 618 cases](https://openairdocs.org/ntsb-events/200/sequence.md) ## Analysis (aircraft 1) While landing, a low-wing airplane collided with a departing high-wing airplane. The high-wing airplane was on the takeoff roll and the low-wing airplane was in the landing flare when the collision occurred. Both airplanes came to rest upright on the runway with the low-wing airplane on top of the high-wing airplane. All three pilots were able to exit unassisted. The high-wing airplane was departing for a local flight and the low-wing airplane was on an instructional flight. The pilot of each airplane reported that they had transmitted their position/intentions on the common traffic control frequency (CTAF). In addition, the pilots reported not seeing the other airplane before the collision occurred. The runway's threshold was displaced 320-feet due to trees, which were approximately 50-feet tall, located just south and along the approach path. The pilot of each airplane reported that the trees contributing to the accident. According to 14 CFR 91.113, Right-of-way rules: Except water operations, "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach." ## Analysis (aircraft 2) While landing, a low-wing airplane collided with a departing high-wing airplane. The high-wing airplane was on the takeoff roll and the low-wing airplane was in the landing flare when the collision occurred. Both airplanes came to rest upright on the runway with the low-wing airplane on top of the high-wing airplane. All three pilots were able to exit unassisted. The high-wing airplane was departing for a local flight and the low-wing airplane was on an instructional flight. The pilot of each airplane reported that they had transmitted their position/intentions on the common traffic control frequency (CTAF). In addition, the pilots reported not seeing the other airplane before the collision occurred. The runway's threshold was displaced 320-feet due to trees, which were approximately 50-feet tall, located just south and along the approach path. The pilot of each airplane reported that the trees contributing to the accident. According to 14 CFR 91.113, Right-of-way rules: Except water operations, "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach." ## Factual narrative (aircraft 1) On May 15, 2008, about 1415 central daylight time, a single-engine Stinson 108-3 high-wing airplane, N6805M, and a single-engine Piper PA-28-161 low-wing airplane, N8295X, collided at the Northwest Regional Airport (52F) in Roanoke, Texas. The Stinson was on the takeoff roll and the Piper was in the landing flare when the collision occurred. The commercial pilot, the sole occupant, of the Stinson and the certified flight instructor (CFI) and student pilot in the Piper were not injured. The Stinson was owned and operated by the pilot. The Piper was owned by RTJE Bach Enterprises LLC., of Waukesha, Wisconsin, and operated by US Aviation Group of Denton, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and flight plans were not filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 flights. The Stinson was being operated as a personal flight and the Piper as an instructional flight. An examination of the wreckage revealed that the left wing of the Piper and the upper fuselage of the Stinson sustained structural damage. According to the pilot of the Stinson, after looking for approaching traffic he announcing his intentions, via the airport's common traffic advisory frequency (CTAF), to depart runway 35. He then taxied onto runway 35 and began his takeoff roll. As the airplane approached takeoff speed the pilot heard a "loud noise" and the airplane stopped moving. Not knowing what had happened, the pilot elected to exit the airplane. Once out of the airplane the pilot observed the Piper resting on top of his Stinson. The CFI, who was providing instruction in the Piper, reported that he and his student had completed four touch-and-go maneuvers and were performing the fifth when the accident occurred. While abeam the runway numbers, on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35, the instructor reduced the engine power to idle and asked the student to perform a simulated engine out procedure. While on final approach the instructor added engine power to correct for the student's low approach. Once over the runway the student flared for landing. During the flare the instructor heard a "thud" and observed that the airplane was not flying and was not on the ground. It was then that he realized they had landed on top of the Stinson. The instructor reported that the student pilot had transmitted position reports for the downwind, base, and final legs of the traffic pattern. The instructor further reported, "At no time during the flight did I see the other aircraft." Runway 35 was a 3,500-foot by 40-foot asphalt runway. The runway's threshold was displaced 320-feet due to trees, that were approximately 50-feet tall, located south and along the approach path. The pilot of each airplane reported that the trees contributing to the accident. According to 14 CFR 91.113, Right-of-way rules: Except water operations, "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface,except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach." ## Factual narrative (aircraft 2) On May 15, 2008, about 1415 central daylight time, a single-engine Stinson 108-3 high-wing airplane, N6805M, and a single-engine Piper PA-28-161 low-wing airplane, N8295X, collided at the Northwest Regional Airport (52F) in Roanoke, Texas. The Stinson was on the takeoff roll and the Piper was in the landing flare when the collision occurred. The commercial pilot, the sole occupant, of the Stinson and the certified flight instructor (CFI) and student pilot in the Piper were not injured. The Stinson was owned and operated by the pilot. The Piper was owned by RTJE Bach Enterprises LLC., of Waukesha, Wisconsin, and operated by US Aviation Group of Denton, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and flight plans were not filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 flights. The Stinson was being operated as a personal flight and the Piper as an instructional flight. Photographs provided to the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC) revealed that the left wing of the Piper and the upper fuselage of the Stinson sustained structural damage. According to the pilot of the Stinson, after looking for approaching traffic he announcing his intentions, via the airport's common traffic advisory frequency (CTAF), to depart runway 35. He then taxied onto runway 35 and began his takeoff roll. As the airplane approached takeoff speed the pilot heard a "loud noise" and the airplane stopped moving. Not knowing what had happened, the pilot elected to exit the airplane. Once out of the airplane the pilot observed the Piper resting on top of his Stinson. The CFI, who was providing instruction in the Piper, reported that he and his student had completed four touch-and-go maneuvers and were performing the fifth when the accident occurred. While abeam the runway numbers, on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35, the instructor reduced the engine power to idle and asked the student to perform a simulated engine out procedure. While on final approach the instructor added engine power to correct for the student's low approach. Once over the runway the student flared for landing. During the flare the instructor heard a "thud" and observed that the airplane was not flying and was not on the ground. It was then that he realized they had landed on top of the Stinson. The instructor reported that the student pilot had transmitted position reports for the downwind, base, and final legs of the traffic pattern. The instructor further reported, "At no time during the flight did I see the other aircraft." Runway 35 was a 3,500-foot by 40-foot asphalt runway. The runway's threshold was displaced 320-feet due to trees, that were approximately 50-feet tall, located south and along the approach path. The pilot of each airplane reported that the trees contributing to the accident. According to 14 CFR 91.113, Right-of-way rules: Except water operations, "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft inflight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach." ## Aircraft 1 - Registration: [N6805M](https://openairdocs.org/aircraft/N6805M), registered now, S/N 108-4805, built 1948 (OpenAirDocs) - Reported make and model: STINSON 108-3 - Registry model: [Stinson 108-3](https://openairdocs.org/model/stinson-108-3) (registry code 9230408) (OpenAirDocs) - Registry engine: [Franklin 6A4165 series](https://openairdocs.org/engine/franklin-6a4165-series) (registry code 27025, reciprocating) (OpenAirDocs) - Category: Airplane - Serial number: 108-4805 - Airframe hours: 1293 - Engines: FRANKLIN PZL6A350-C1R 220 horsepower reciprocating - Damage: Substantial damage - Flight: Personal, Part 91 - Airworthiness certificate: Standard, Normal - Last inspection: Annual, February 22, 2008 - Departed: 52F, ROANOKE, TX - Destination: Roanoke, TX - Airport: 52F, Northwest Regional Airport, runway 35, 3,500 × 40 ft, asphalt ## Aircraft 2 - Registration: [N8295X](https://openairdocs.org/deregistered/N8295X-2017-02-28), registration cancelled 2017-02-28, S/N 28-8116083, built 1980 (OpenAirDocs) - Reported make and model: PIPER PA-28-161 - Registry model: [Piper PA-28-161](https://openairdocs.org/model/piper-pa-28-161) (registry code 7102803) (OpenAirDocs) - Registry engine: [Lycoming 0-320 series](https://openairdocs.org/engine/lycoming-0-320-series) (registry code 41508, reciprocating) (OpenAirDocs) - Category: Airplane - Serial number: 28-8116083 - Engines: LYCOMING O-320 180 horsepower reciprocating - Damage: Substantial damage - Flight: Instructional, Part 91 - Operator: US Aviation Group - Registered owner: Rtje Bach Enterprises LLC - Airworthiness certificate: Standard, Normal - Last inspection: 100 hour, December 29, 2007 - Departed: DTO, DENTON, TX - Destination: 52F, ROANOKE, TX - Airport: 52F, Northwest Regional Airport, runway 35, 3,500 × 40 ft, asphalt ## Flight crew As NTSB recorded them. NTSB leaves out names. - Pilot, aircraft N6805M; age 65; injuries: none; commercial; airplane ratings: multi-engine land, single-engine land; instrument ratings: airplane; medical: class 3, with waivers/limitations; last flight review September 1, 2007; seat: left; flight hours: 1,837 total, 450 in this make and model, 1,837 as pilot in command, 4 in the last 90 days, 2 in the last 30 days - Flight instructor, aircraft N8295X; age 23; injuries: none; flight instructor, commercial; airplane ratings: single-engine land; instrument ratings: airplane; medical: class 2, with waivers/limitations; last flight review October 3, 2007; seat: right; flight hours: 654 total, 12 in this make and model, 510 as pilot in command, 201 in the last 90 days, 58 in the last 30 days, 2 in the last 24 hours - Student pilot, aircraft N8295X; age 60; injuries: none; student; medical: class 3, with waivers/limitations; seat: left; flight hours: 174 total, 172 in this make and model, 10 as pilot in command, 17 in the last 90 days, 4 in the last 30 days ## Weather - Conditions: Visual (VMC), Day - Wind: 360° at 10 knots - Visibility: 10 statute miles - Temperature: 82 °F, dew point 57 °F - Altimeter: 29.60 inHg ## FAA reports on this event (2) The FAA's own accident and incident reports, matched to the aircraft by N-number and date (OpenAirDocs). - [Accident 20080515838369A](https://openairdocs.org/incident/20080515838369A), May 15, 2008: Univar 1083, Roanoke, TX, Substantial damage. (-23) On 05/15/2008 at approximately 1402 central daylight time (CDT) a Piper PA-28-161, N8295X, owned by rtje bach enterprises LLC and operated by U.S.… - [Accident 20080515838371A](https://openairdocs.org/incident/20080515838371A), May 15, 2008: Piper PA28161, Roanoke, TX, Substantial damage. (-23) On 05/15/2008 at approximately 1402 central daylight time (CDT) a Piper PA-28-161, N8295X, owned by rtje bach enterprises LLC and operated by U.S.… ## Docket (6 files) The files NTSB released with the investigation on January 7, 2009, on NTSB's docket system: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=68034. 11.2 MB in all. - Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report (A), NTSB Form 6120.1 (item 1, .PDF, 773 KB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304608&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Pilot%2FOperator%20Aircraft%20Accident%20Report%20(A),%20NTSB%20Form%206120.1-Redacted.PDF - Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report (B), NTSB Form 6120.1 (item 2, .PDF, 731 KB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304609&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Pilot%2FOperator%20Aircraft%20Accident%20Report%20(B),%20NTSB%20Form%206120.1-Redacted.PDF - Digital Photo 1, Right Side View (item 3, .PDF, 2.3 MB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304610&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Digital%20Photo%201,%20Right%20Side%20View-Master.PDF - Digital Photo 2, Rear View (item 4, .PDF, 2.2 MB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304611&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Digital%20Photo%202,%20Rear%20View-Master.PDF - Digital Photo 3, Front View (item 5, .PDF, 2.1 MB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304612&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Digital%20Photo%203,%20Front%20View-Master.PDF - Digital Photo 4, Trees at Runway (item 6, .PDF, 3.2 MB): https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40304613&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Digital%20Photo%204,%20Trees%20at%20Runway-Master.PDF From the NTSB's public API. Aircraft are matched to registry aircraft by N-number and event date, checked against the reported serial number, make and model; the registry's history has gaps, so older matches can be wrong. Compare the reported make and model. --- OpenAirDocs.org is an independent research project of [Contrail Labs](https://contraillabs.com/). It is not affiliated with the FAA or the NTSB. Source documents are U.S. government works in the public domain.